Dear Divorce Minister,
I agree, that those in leadership have less privacy than average folks, and that he would have to give a better explanation in order to continue as an active leader in a church. However, (from what I’ve what I’ve gathered in the past hour or so), he left pastoring quite a while ago, and he’s not even sure if he’s a Christian or not anymore. So, if people still consider him a Christian leader, it’s their own problem, not his. He doesn’t owe anybody any kind of explanation anymore.
I read his first book soon after I was married, and I wished i’d read it before. I don’t know if it would’ve made any difference in my life. I thought it was well written, and very bold too, as he seemed to be trusting God completely with his future, and had no idea if he’d ever get married or not when he wrote it. Most other dating books i’d read, were written by people who’d gone through their lives, and already found their soul mates. At any rate, my marriage was a mess right from the start, and 2 years back, I finally ended it. Most people didn’t know how bad things were, because we hid things well. Unlike most people who are divorcing recently though, I made no promises of ‘moving forward as friends’ because of all the pain. There have been many times, that I’ve desperately wanted to talk about the reason(s) I wanted to get a divorce, but I held my tongue, for the sake of my children. The more I slander their father, the more they will get hurt, because they still love him. Is it possible to share the reasons for a divorce without saying a single negative thing about each other? I doubt it.
Do you truly think it is helpful in any way, for all of their sins to be plastered all over the internet? It would be especially hurtful to the children. And it would hurt them too, because the world, has become a very unforgiving place, and once your brokenness is out in the open, people treat you like you can never change. And when that happens amongst Christians, it is particularly hurtful. Do not seek to tear them up. Be compassionate. Doesn’t it say somewhere that ‘love covers a multitude of sins’?? i’m not a bible scholar, and I, like Josh, am on the path of the prodigal son, so I’m not going to pretend to know what that verse means. But… I can vouch for one thing – the lack of compassion in the Christian world is extremely saddening – and one of the main reasons for so many Christians choosing the path of the prodigal.
-Mary (written in respond to post: “Joshua Harris’ Separation Announcement: Kissing Ordination Goodbye?“
Dear Mary,
First, I wrote an updated post including the new information that Joshua Harris no longer considers himself a Christian and was announcing his divorce in the first announcement.
You write,
However, (from what I’ve what I’ve gathered in the past hour or so), he left pastoring quite a while ago, and he’s not even sure if he’s a Christian or not anymore. So, if people still consider him a Christian leader, it’s their own problem, not his. He doesn’t owe anybody any kind of explanation anymore.
I generally agree with you in this point. However, Harris’ situation is complicated by the fact that he benefited and continues to benefit from fame as a Christian teacher of the purity culture. In his new, non-pastor venture, he even cites being an author whose books sold millions of copies.
Does this mean he owes us an explanation? I don’t know. It does complicate matters, though.
Personally, I am willing to give him a pass at this point as I do not expect a professing non-Christian to argue for acting like a Christian.
You next share about your own divorce:
There have been many times, that I’ve desperately wanted to talk about the reason(s) I wanted to get a divorce, but I held my tongue, for the sake of my children. The more I slander their father, the more they will get hurt, because they still love him. Is it possible to share the reasons for a divorce without saying a single negative thing about each other? I doubt it.
My daughter knows why I am divorced from my first wife (who is not related to her). She is only eight years old. I do not run down my ex-wife. It is not an issue of “slander” as I am not telling lies about her. I simply explained to my daughter that having another “boyfriend” while being married to me is not acceptable.
Kids need to know that divorce doesn’t “just happen.” They need to understand actions have consequences, and some actions in marriage come with the consequence of divorce.
Is it possible to share the reasons for a divorce without saying a single negative thing about each other? I doubt it.
The truth sometimes sounds negative because what the person did was bad! God expects us to be truth speakers, not liars (see John 3:21).
I am NOT suggesting we become verbally abusive about our ex-spouse. The point is to tell the truth by sticking to the facts about the actions leading up to the divorce (without name-calling). You can then let your kids draw their own conclusions from there.
This leads me to the last part of your comment:
Do you truly think it is helpful in any way, for all of their sins to be plastered all over the internet? It would be especially hurtful to the children.
I am not asking and have never asked for “all their sins to be plastered all over the internet.” This is a straw man argument. Of course, it would be damaging to the kids if that was what happened.
Giving a basic biblical argument for why one is allowed to divorce is not the same as exposing all the sins in the marriage. Besides, I am not even asking for that now since he has officially disavowed the Christian faith. I agree people looking to him for Christian leadership today do so at their own peril.
Doesn’t it say somewhere that ‘love covers a multitude of sins’?? i’m not a bible scholar, and I, like Josh, am on the path of the prodigal son, so I’m not going to pretend to know what that verse means. But… I can vouch for one thing – the lack of compassion in the Christian world is extremely saddening – and one of the main reasons for so many Christians choosing the path of the prodigal.
That quote is from I Peter 4:8. It is worth noting this same book talks about living holy lives as well. Love and holiness are to be bound together not separated.
What Joshua Harris and his family is experiencing is an awful tragedy. I do not rejoice in what is happening. No one who has a heart and gone through a painful divorce would celebrate such an ending.
We can have love and compassion for leaders and still hold them accountable for what they teach. They are not mutually exclusive.
That said, I am NOT saying we need an answer from Harris at this point. It is answer enough that he has disavowed his Christian faith.
I want to come back the agreement at the start of your comment:
I agree, that those in leadership have less privacy than average folks, and that he would have to give a better explanation in order to continue as an active leader in a church.
Does this put you in the same camp as all those Christians who have no compassion? Of course, not.
We need to hold leaders in the church to a higher standard, because we are trusting them with power and position. This does not necessarily mean we are less compassionate or loving towards them. It just means we are being wise about who we allow to lead.
Hope that helps clear up some things!
-Pastor David aka Divorce Minister
Hi Pastor David,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment so thoroughly. I’ve been meaning to reply sooner. To be honest, I don’t have a problem with him benefitting from the book(s) he wrote, because he DID write them. It’s up to those who buy his books, to read everything with a grain of salt, because, after all, that’s how they should be reading ALL books written by fallible humans. Have you read Napoleon Hill’s book “Think and Grow Rich”? I was surprised to find a lot of very negative critics, simply because Hill himself never got rich. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but it made no difference to me, because there were many helpful ideas in his book. Sometimes a person is a successful teacher, not because their life is a success, but because they’ve failed so much that they know exactly what to do in order to not fail! In Harris’s case, he wrote the book when he was still very young. In every day life, does anybody follow the advice of a 21yr old without question? 100%? As if they’re they final authority on the topic? When they’ve had ZERO experience in the topic they’re advising on? Most likely, not, unless you’re younger than the 21 year old. But, that doesn’t mean you can’t learn from a 21yr old! Some of the best lessons I’ve learned are from children! So, I don’t think it’s wrong of him to continue to benefit from his work. I think it’s fair.
And that’s why I don’t think he needs to explain himself – for all we know, he already has – to those who matter. We don’t matter, because, we don’t know him personally, and we’re not the ones who are by his side, suffering with him through whatever he’s going through. He owes us NOTHING.
Now to the biggest issue – kids. I agree that kids need to know that divorce doesn’t happen for no reason. It was easy for you to tell your daughter about the infidelity of your first wife, because she wasn’t related. If she was… she would’ve figured it out, unless she was too young. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for.
How much the kids should be told – I think that’s different based on age, and level of understanding of the child. My kids didn’t need any explanation, because it was obvious to them that we weren’t friends, not because we yelled at each other all the time, but because of the amount of tension in the room and the deathly silence. They also knew, when we went to see a counselor, so I never had to tell them that I did all I could to make things work. For the rest, I will have to rely on their ability to make good choices, and not do or say something, just because their dad does it.
The reason I can’t tell them the details – is because – some things are simply too painful – not for me, because I already went through it – but for them, because they love him. He was an emotional abuser. He knew how to say things in such a way that they would cause the greatest amount of pain. How do you process it, when you find out how vile a person you love deeply, has been towards another person whom you also love deeply?
I agree that truth isn’t slander, but I used the word slander, because ugly truth sure appears to be slander. So, I test it another way – I ask myself, in what way it will help my kids, for them to know this bit of ugly truth. If i’m not 100% sure of it’s helpfulness, I can be sure that I have a secret motive spearheaded by my ego. I don’t have the ability to test my motives accurately, because I’m really good at believing my own lies. So, it helps me to test things from a different direction, in order to keep me from doing something that will only benefit me. There’s no need to fill my kids’ mouths with bile.
I do know one thing… There are things they tell me, that the do not trust him with. So, i’m sure they’ve figured out, that I too, couldn’t trust him completely. And you can’t be married to someone you can’t trust.
You said: “Giving a basic biblical argument for why one is allowed to divorce is not the same as exposing all the sins in the marriage. ”
What would be the biblical argument for my divorce? There was no adultery. That is the ONLY situation, in which the bible says that divorce is acceptable (according to my knowledge). There’s nothing about physical abuse. Even less about emotional abuse. What about an alcoholic who can’t take care of the family because of his bad habits? There are countless situations, other than adultery, that require divorce.
And, if we want to be super biblical about everything… how about remarrying after a divorce? THAT is also adultery according to the bible! The reason I stayed married as long as I did, was because there was no cheating involved. I had to convince myself, against the bible, that it was ok to get divorced, so I wouldn’t go insane. I’ve also been super angry with God for saying that anyone who marries a divorced woman is committing adultery – because, I felt he was saying that directly to me – and I don’t want anybody to become an adulterer on account of me! So, I was angry. I felt he was against me, against my finding any kind of healing, from my one foolish mistake of marrying the wrong person. How is it that you get a second chance at everything except that?
You have no idea how tormented I was, because I was trying so hard to live by what I was reading in the bible. I was convinced that i had to learn how to forgive and love while remaining in that relationship. And perhaps that is still true. I don’t know. All i know is, i had to leave the Church, because the burdens were too many and the help was too little. There was no salve for my pain. So i left, and licked my own wounds. I left the God whom i know loves me, and i left the man whom i knew hated me. Somehow, they seemed to be two sides of the same coin.
Anyway… sorry for rambling on. It’s been 21 months since my divorce. It’s finally starting to hurt less. But i still feel my hackles rise when he’s in the vicinity.
Mary,
I have lots of posts on the blog here addressing various questions you raise in your comment. In short, my understanding of allowable divorce would be broad enough to include abuse as a reason for a Christian to divorce their spouse. Whether or not you agree with that interpretation of Scripture or believe that fits your situation is for you to discern with Holy Spirit.
As far as remarriage is concerned, I fail to understand the logic of the position that God recognizes a divorce but not a subsequent marriage. It is logically incoherent. Either God sees the person as divorced–i.e. not in bondage to the first marriage–or He does not. The former implies the freedom to remarry, and the later does not.
Hope that helps!
-Pastor David
PS If we question our ego, we can always check in with wise people that we trust for their feedback. Also, could you not also be self-deceived in saying too little, too? Just a thought.
Hi Pastor David,
I will go through your other posts as time permits. But… in my understanding of the scriptures… divorce doesn’t seem to be an acceptable solution, no matter what. Like the verse in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 – ” To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.” That isn’t written in confusing language that needs a Bible dictionary and knowledge of the original language to understand what it says. It’s kind of very plain, that divorce isn’t acceptable. Unless one person is not a Christian, and chooses to walk away.
And, when the Pharisees wanted to know about divorce, Jesus told them that the only reason Moses allowed them to issue a certificate of divorce was because of the hardness of their hearts, not because it was an acceptable solution. “10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.” – (from Mark 10). This too, is written very plainly.
Anyway, i’ll see if I can find your posts related to these verses. Personally, I read them at face value, as I read all things, unless they’re a parable or something.
As for saying too little – I can see how that would be an issue if someone seems to have to the potential to commit murder. Verbal abuse… becomes a matter of ‘he said, she said’ and there is no concrete proof unless someone records a conversation. But even then, he was brilliant at weaseling out of things he said, by changing a small word here and a tone there, and making you doubt your own sanity. Just last month, he failed to send in a payment and said ‘he forgot’ which week he was supposed to pay. After 20 months, he forgot? plus it’s the same day HE gets paid… what’s there to even forget? And then, another lie on top of that one – that he was away from home and couldn’t do it without his computer. I’ve been making payments with my phone, and my phone isn’t as fancy as his! How many such things am I supposed to share with the kids? Or am I supposed to grade them by degree of deception and only tell them the absolutely worst ones?
Anyway… the way I see it, i’m the only one who could be misunderstood or judged wrong, by my choice to remain silent. I’d rather be misjudged from my silence than defend myself and cause another person to be judged. Not that I can prevent that fully… my mom, in spite of my silence, sees him as a monster.
Oh well. I suppose I’ve rolled my dice… 🙂
Mary